http://www.eauk.org/ All the comments for the "Life beyond debt" page en-us Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:51 http://www.eauk.org/images/FNT_logo.jpg http://www.eauk.org Very good and nice idea; at the same time a great lesson to me like unwise ministries. Thanking you, Gunturu http://www.eauk.org/articles/comments.cfm?cspid=38905 G.V.K.Rao Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:14 Hi Paul, Thanks for raising what could be a very challenging question. My answer to your question is yes, such help is for the community as a whole. Your comments seem to assume that helping someone find a new lifestyle is synonmous with a conversion to Christianity and that teaching someone a new lifestyle is synonymous with proselytising. I do not believe this is the case. There are many Christian organisations that help people understand and implement biblical principles in their lives. The people who benefit from this teaching and practice it in their own lives do not automatically become Christians. It is possible, unfortunately, to adopt the lifestyle without having a change of heart. Conversion to Christianity is not a conversion of lifestyle. It is a conversion of the heart that leads to a change in lifestyle. Teaching someone the principles of a new lifestyle (of financial management, for instance) is not the same as proselytising. Christian financial management teaching says here's a good way to do it. It is based on biblical pirnciples, it is logical and it works. Certainly, if this is successful it opens the door for someone to ask more about our faith but it does not force anyone to walk through that door. Proselytising would be to take the next step and say since this is successful it must mean that Jesus is the only way, so let me tell you how to become a Christian. Clearly that is illogical as well as ineffective. I know because, if I could be honest, I have been tempted to use this approach many times, but then I remembered that true conversion can only happen when Jesus reveals himself to a person's senses and it's not dependent on anything I say or do. Therefore, it is possible, indeed very likely, that we help someone with the principles for a better lifestyle and find that they do not get 'converted' certainly as far as Christianity is concerned and that's okay because conversion was not our job in the first place. It's Jesus' job. Therefore, yes, help with debt is for the community as a whole. May I say well done to all who have been trying to help in this time of need. Much, much more is yet to be done. And thanks Paul, this really forced me to try to figure out what I really think. Jenny http://www.eauk.org/articles/comments.cfm?cspid=38905 Jenny Lee Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:14 I read the article 'Churches ideally placed to help people struggling with debt' on your site. Although it's admirable that the Churches are concerned with helping people practically with their debt problems through advice, I'm concerned about the other approach. People in such situations are vulnerable and I personally find it quite vulgar for the Churches to take advantage of these people's state of mind in order to proselytise their faith. It certainly came across in that article. For example, although this quote ["Helping those who are vulnerable lies at the heart of the Christian message and calling. By doing this, churches are living out their Christian faith in their communities."] makes it appear heroic in deed, the following quotes ["We can weep with those who weep and we can offer not only practical help, but also eternal hope." AND "He said that people were not looking to own more, but to find a way out of debt and a new lifestyle, which the church could offer"] clearly show that proselytising is part of the deal. I know it is inherent in Christianity to proselytise, but surely in such situations it should step back from this approach and stick with the former. Why does helping HAVE to include conversion? Furthermore, does this faith-orientated approach exclude those who have no and desire no faith, but who still require that emotional and practical support? After all, it is claimed to be there for the community as a whole. But is it? I look forward to any response. Paul Nemeth http://www.eauk.org/articles/comments.cfm?cspid=38905 paul nemeth Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:41